- 11-10-2011, 10:55 AM #33Registered User
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
- Tseung Kwan O, NT
Thanks charade, you were able to articulate all the things I wanted to say but was unable to.
My child has DS and we didn't have a choice because we didn't know. Would I have chosen differently had we known, I can't answer that. Knowing how our little girl is growing and thriving then there would have been no choice but things could have been very very different and I know parents who face unbelievable struggles day in day out.
People often forget that a child with special needs grows up to be an adult and whilst I know that my little one will not be a doctor, lawyer, banker, I do know that she will in some way contribute something to the world in which she lives. Which is a lot more than so many 'normal' individuals do.
Yes I have concerns about what will happen to her as we grow old and when we die but we will do our very best to ensure that we build relationships in all our lives to ensure that she will never be alone.
It's not about being PC, it's about a level of ignorance that you have to be perfect to be of value and as many have already cited on here this kind of thinking leads to nothing good.
- 11-10-2011, 12:53 PM #34Registered User
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Hong Kong
I didn't take Oscar test either as I was under 35 and no family history though we are fully aware of certain risk Several nurses couldn't understand y i didn't do it despite a common practice many(i suppose under that gynae clinic) under 35 did it One was about to help me register as if it's a sure thing people wud do and I decline it And others keep asking me why I didn't do whenever they realize I didn't.
My gynae gave us a very clear picture of the options & we asked loads & loads of questions and made Given that both our religions don't favour abortions and that we as parents to be are fully prepared to accept and love the child whom we are blessed with in whatever condition to come and share this life with us But like carang i prefer to deal with it when it happened
As a pregnant mum I felt so much love for the little life in me and that I want to protect and care for it with all my life I am not fully sure if i will do a gd job but i am prepared to do my best in the event of DS or any other disability
I do find that bringing a life to the world is so much of a responsibility and decisions revolving it should be made seriously and stood by firmly I wonder if the couple in subject faltered in a moment of uncertainty of themselves coping with an imposible keep deemed that way by a medical professional who supposedly knows 'better' I guess the mental pain especially for the mother now and in days to come may not be less intense than that had they stood by their decision not to give up and what they had to cope with And who knows they might have also missed the joys as what nicolejoy and family are having now
Lastly a point on statistics- society is made up of humans,alot more complex than sheer numbers I personally give high respect and admiration to parents who know they cn't have the 'ordinary'lives and the convenience and 'blessings' of a 'normal' child but I think they are EXTRAORDINARY people and they contribute immensely to the society and teach us what is unconditional love and taking full responsibility.
On such selfless love and great sacrifices I salute nicolejoy and the like!
- 11-10-2011, 01:39 PM #35
please don't get me wrong... i didn't think it was only about being PC.... personally, i find the view abhorrent. i can't believe that people use logic as their argument when the logic they use is completely illogical. (did that make any sense?)
- 11-11-2011, 01:03 AM #36
I love how once people get emotionally involved in an argument they don't really care what the nuances of an argument are and just fall back on how "horrible" they think another's opinion is -- by interpretating what someone is saying however they want. I am impressed the Hitler comparison came so soon. But it's okay. There is no better way to make an impression than comparing what I said to the actions of one of the most evil dictators mankind has known. Here's a good question, if you knew your child would become the next Hitler, would you keep the baby? (and to be clear, I am in no way relating keeping a disable child to having the next Hitler. Completely separate question, before someone tries to hunt me down and destroy my family. I am asking because I would like to know your thoughts because it is an interesting question.)
First of all, I did not say the "pleasure of reproducing". I said the "gratification of reproducing". It is fulfilling in an emotional and mental way to have children. You become less egotistical and offspring often give a greater meaning to life because you are striving for a cause (e.g. the happiness of your children) that is greater than your own.
Did I say we should kill all disable people? No. I said I don't understand why someone would want to keep a disable baby knowingly. Anyone can have a disable baby, whether your chances are high or low. I did not say everyone should have an oscar scan. People can take their chances. I didn't have an amino. How many parents who unknowingly had a disable child think "I wish they were normal"? I am sure not all. But I am sure it’s not zero either.
Disabilities post a greater challenge to life. Life itself can be challenging. Personally I would not chose to have a child if I know he would be an insufferable alcoholic either. But I am just stating an opinion. I am not espousing that everyone should have the same opinion. We are entitle to our choices and their consequences.
What I said does not translate in ANY WAY that disabled people do not deserve to be loved or that parents of disable children "did the wrong thing". On the contrary. There are lots of ALREADY existing children that are suffering and need care and love. I would not want to bring another disabled person into the world. I agree that to raise a disable person you probably have to be stronger and more compassionate than a regular parent. It must be a lot of work. But if you are such a compassionate person already, why not help those already in need? We are not talking about a EXISTING human. We are talking about a potentiality that has not yet materialized.
Is it more rewarding raising someone disabled than having a regular child? Are we not all thrilled when our children masters a new challenge or hits a developmental milestone? And I would like to rearticulate that I am taking about SEVERE disabilities and handicaps that affect independence. That means when the parents are gone, they will be a ward of the state and post a burden to society because they cannot care for themselves. I don't consider mild learning difficulties or malformations a true disability. That may very well be evolutionary diversity. What I am referring to are disabilities that makes one dysfunctional in society and posts harm to themselves or other. Once again, be reminded that I am talking about someone like this COMING into existence. Not those that are alive and among us that require our love,help and care.
As for the argument that you keep a disable child because they are YOUR CHILD, then by the same logic you must also be anti-abortion and anti-choice. Does that mean every woman (even raped victims) necessarily needs to keep their child because it is HERS? Does a woman not have a right over their body?
I am not arguing that you should not be allowed to keep a disable baby. Everyone had their own reasons for their actions. I only said that I don't understand why anyone would make that choice knowingly. And maybe I said it to hear your views.
Waiting for more posts on how horrible I must be as a person. Yours truly xx
- 11-11-2011, 02:19 AM #37Registered User
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Hong Kong
I think one doesnt really know what one would do util one has to face the situation. There are many Id never do this or that that I said over the years untill it actually happenned. One of them was I would never move to HK:)
Now on a sligtly different note. My mother when pregnant with my sister was diagnosed with cancer - she was told that going along with the pregnancy would kill her. She chose to have my sister and indeed the cancer did kill her. Now on a one hand what a heroic thing to do. I have a fantastic sister whom I love to bits. On the other hand now I am a mother and I had been thinking about it more myself I also think it was selfish as the other kids got to pay the price and not only had to go thru a trauma of seeing their mother die but also live without her for most of the chldhood. So I think we cant be quick to judge either way. Everyone needs to have a choice and then weigh all the consequences before making the decision.I would like to think I would eep the baby no matter what but then again I never had to make that choice.
- 11-11-2011, 10:32 AM #38
how do you decide if the disability is sufficient enough that you would not go through with the pregnancy?
-is being blind enough?
-or maybe both?
-what about if they developed a pre-birth test for autism? would that be enough?
that is one of the problems i can see with your "logic". who and how decides?
the other thing is: most of us won't go down in the anals of history as making a significant "contribution" to society..... so, should we be terminated, too?
- 11-11-2011, 10:33 AM #39
ps> not one person has said that you are a horrible person. i said that i found the VIEW and the ideas which you expressed to be abhorrent.... not you.
- 11-11-2011, 10:34 AM #40Registered User
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
Wasibunny, all communication involves interpreting what one thinks the other person is saying. You are also interpreting that we are saying you are horrible, when I for one am not saying that. I just think your argument is flawed.
The Nazi ideology will come up in these discussions because this is the extreme end of your line of thought. It was pointed out in case it had not occurred to you.
Sorry for misquoting you on “pleasure” vs “gratification”. Whatever you call it, though, there is a big benefit to parents in having children. People with disabled children have said that they feel the same gratification in their disabled children. So both sets of parents are having children to satisfy a personal need (which one could call “selfish” because the world really doesn’t need more child, disabled or not). Are you saying that parents of disabled children are more selfish because not only are they selfishly satisfying the same personal need as parents of non-disabled children are but their children are never going to contribute to society because they cannot be independent?
It seems to be a question, then, of how selfish one is allowed to be. You say (as I understand it) – selfish enough to overpopulate the world but not so selfish as to pose any risk of not being independent. I say – if you feel you have a fairly good chance of providing for your child, go ahead, indulge your “selfishness”.
1. It is hard to know how independent the child will be before they are born. Science is not all-knowing. Many children with Down’s grow up to be fairly independent if given some support.
2. Even if they do not end up being independent, others have mentioned the value of these “different” people to society.
3. You seem to assume that people with disabilities who are not independent will become a ward of the state once their parents are no more. My general observation is that the “burden” of care of the disabled child who cannot be independent tends to fall on siblings and extended family members rather than the state. In fact, parents of disabled children work very hard to ensure that their children do not end up a ward of the state. You seem to be privy to some information that the majority of people with these disabilities end up as wards of the state once their parents are gone. Personally, I do not have a problem even if this was the case because I believe that these people do provide some value to society. But I think that most parents who have disabled children are not thinking that the future of their child lies in being a ward of the state, they are working to make sure exactly the opposite. Some, of course, may not succeed.
Since this started off as a post on Down’s Syndrome, I’m assuming we are talking about children with Down’s Syndrome or other disabilities of a similar nature that may limit the capacity to be independent.
Also, remember that these parents did not choose to create a child with a disability. It happened and they considered the options and decided that they would like to have a shot at the same gratification that you and I have with our children, even though the child is disabled and it would be more challenging to provide for it. And yes, some of the willingness to go through the extra effort comes from it being their own child. Just as most of us are willing to go through the effort of raising our own child but not other children (even non-disabled ones).
As for the Hitler question, I don’t think it’s possible to really ever know what your child is going to be. Even with the DS child, as far as I understand it, they can’t predict the extent of the disability. There have been stories of how parents were forewarned that their child would grow up to be the scourge of the earth but they had them anyway. Looking at the majority of the human race, I might say gah, chances of my child growing up to be an absolute tosser are very high, so why have a child? But hope springs eternal, I guess.
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