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Having an amnio test ruined my life

  1. #41
    thanka2 is offline Registered User
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    I just wanted to add that I've always been quite inclusive in my way of thinking about people in general--never had any issues or stigmas toward people with disabilities as some of my good friends are disabled in some way or another.

    But, one of the best things I've done recently is take a course in special and inclusive education. I just took my final exam for this course as part of my master's study yesterday (meant I was wriitng non-stop for two hours to finish two long essays--forgot what it's like to use a pencil and paper it seems--so used to using a computer!).

    I recommend that everyone take such a course as it really opened my eyes to a lot of research regarding disabilities and people who have them and just the whole concept of inclusion in society and social justice. I realized that even I had a lot of misconceptions and I've learned a ton.

    I also recommend this book: Inclusion in Action. I think the best solution for every person is to become as educated as possible on the subject because the incidence of true disability is not decreasing and the likelihood that all of us will encounter it in our lifetime (either personally, through our work or through someone we know) is actually pretty high.

    Also wanted to add that wasinabunny, I was simply saying that we have little in common ideologically on this subject based on what you've written. You're entitled to your opinions. I find them disturbing based on the latest developments in society (the concept of social justice etc.) and what research tells us. We're all entitled to our opinions and it's great we can express them here. But, as I've learned...having a strong opinion also means one must be prepared to be challenged and well, rejected sometimes. That's life.
    “Many women have described their experiences of childbirth as being associated with a
    spiritual uplifting, the power of which they have never previously been aware …
    To such a woman childbirth is a monument of joy within her memory.
    She turns to it in thought to seek again an ecstasy which passed too soon.”

    ~ Grantly Dick-Read (Childbirth Without Fear)

    Mother of Two
    JMW, boy, born November 29, 2007, 9:43 pm, USA
    MJW, girl, born March 17, 2011, 4:14 pm, HK

  2. #42
    wasabibunny's Avatar
    wasabibunny is offline Registered User
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    I was being glib when I made the “horrible person” comment. It’s nice to hear everyone actually discussing their thoughts and beliefs.

    “By your logic, we are cold, heartless chattle. Here only to work and contribute like unfeeling animals or robots. Elderly should be disposed of instead of loved and cared for by their extended family, the unemployed should be cast out of socity instead of given a second chance and anyone who ends up terminally ill or otherwise unproductive has no worth to the rest of us so let's get rid of them too. It's sickening...”

    My logic never said anyone in existence should be wiped away. I said I “struggle to understand” why anyone would knowingly put a disability into this world. If I had a magic science wand that could stop all the suffering of the elderly or diseased, you bet I would.

    “Again, by that logic, none of us should be having children at all, given how overcrowded the world is and how many children there are that could be adopted.”

    Yes I suggested that as a solution once to people who were adamant about how we are destroying the earth. Population control would be the only effective way of dealing with overpopulation, if you think it is truly a problem. Malthus thought we would all starve to death ages ago. It doesn’t take into account technological advances and the basics of supply and demand. People also though we would run out of oil, but simply put, the more we use the more expensive oil become and the more resources we put into conserving it or finding new sources. It is the same with population growth. As the population grows and there are shortages of food for example, the cost of raising a child will increase and it will affect people’s choices of their family size. HK tuition is a good example. I have hear time and again people not having more than 1 or 2 children become of the costs of raising a child here.

    “Are you saying that parents of disabled children are more selfish because not only are they selfishly satisfying the same personal need as parents of non-disabled children are but their children are never going to contribute to society because they cannot be independent?”

    Yes, more or less that is my sentiment. Having children could be construed as a selfish choice. Are selfish choices bad? Not necessarily. Selfishness is actually a necessary condition for human existence. In one way or another, we need to put some of our own interests above those of other in order to survive daily. Like I said, individually and collectively as a species, we all have to live with our choices.


    “how do you decide if the disability is sufficient enough that you would not go through with the pregnancy?
    -is being blind enough?
    -or deaf?
    -or maybe both?
    -what about if they developed a pre-birth test for autism? would that be enough?”

    Personally if I had the choice I would not have a child that was below average intelligence or has any type of disability. PERSONALLY. Of course 1/2 of this world is below average by definition. If I knew with certainty I would never have a child if I knew they would be blind or deaf. PERSONALLY. Because I am self interested. Aspergers and Autism is interesting because there has been a movement by those individual to have it classified not as a disability but as a difference. There are many intelligent autistic people and they have an uncanny ability to focus so they could be savants in certain areas. I think physiologists are going overboard and there are way too many classification for mental “illnesses”. Life can be challenging and some suffering is good for us. Anyway, I am degerssing.

    “But I think that most parents who have disabled children are not thinking that the future of their child lies in being a ward of the state, they are working to make sure exactly the opposite. Some, of course, may not succeed.”

    It was already said here that 90% of parents who found defects after an amnio terminate. They probably weighed their options and make some judgment that mirrors some of my reasoning. If you are rich and choose to provide for your child, sure that is your own choice. Is it selfish? Yes probably. (see my comments about selfishness earlier) More benefit could probably be provided to many starving children with the same resources it takes to raise one disabled child. Can you make that choice? OF COURSE. Do I understand the logic? Not really.

    “Also, remember that these parents did not choose to create a child with a disability. It happened and they considered the options and decided that they would like to have a shot at the same gratification that you and I have with our children, even though the child is disabled and it would be more challenging to provide for it.”

    This is a good point. I can empathize with older couples wanting to keep a child if they believe it is their only shoot at being biological parents. But if I were in that position I may rather adopt a normal baby than raise a biologically disabled one.
    “I recommend that everyone take such a course as it really opened my eyes to a lot of research regarding disabilities and people who have them and just the whole concept of inclusion in society and social justice.”

    Agreed. It was never an argument against social justice. I believe we should always make the best of life. And it is more beneficial to be inclusive of everyone. However, equality in any form (and not just for disabilities -- gender, sexual orientation, etc.) for the human race is a pipe dream. We are not all equal. But should we be entitled to social justice? Yes. Equality and fairness are not the same. And you are certainly extrapolating my views on social justice without any basis.

    “You're entitled to your opinions. I find them disturbing based on the latest developments in society (the concept of social justice etc.) and what research tells us. We're all entitled to our opinions and it's great we can express them here. But, as I've learned...having a strong opinion also means one must be prepared to be challenged and well, rejected sometimes. That's life..”

    I would like to add that we are not all “entitled” to our opinions. Some opinions are not correct. I didn’t say my opinion is absolutely right. In fact, more people should consider that their opinions can be wrong and that being intelligent creatures we should try to understand and back up our opinions with facts and reason. Why did I state my opinion? Of course I wanted to be challenges and hear other’s opinion. Maybe there are points of views I never considered before. My opinion is not a judgment. It is a conclusion I have come to with my understanding and experience. Will it change and grow? Most hopefully.

  3. #43
    carang's Avatar
    carang is offline Registered User
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    opinions by definition are subjective. they are opinions, NOT facts. as such, they are open to interpretation and not "right" or "wrong".

    facts can be right or wrong, not opinions. and while i completely and totally disagree with you, i agree with thanka, you ARE entitled to your opinion.

  4. #44
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    nicolejoy is offline Registered User
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    I have to say, even though I am "pro-life", I don't consider myself to be "anti-choice". I personally would not have an abortion - with the possible possible exception of if keeping the baby would kill both me and the baby. The cancer situation that alfa brought up, I'm not sure what I would do. My husband, I'm sure, would probably want to save my life if it was a "one or the other" situation like that...

    That said, when I speak of topics such as these, I share my experience and why I did not and would not terminate, and how I find it sad when people do... BUT I don't insist on everyone doing the same thing as me, and I don't condemn those who would choose an abortion. I know that it is a personal choice, and as much as I don't like abortion, it is legal and women do choose it. It has nothing to do with me and my opinions.

    I do have to say that I take offense when those who would terminate want to globalise their position and say that since THEY would terminate, I should have. That I am selfish because I chose to keep my baby knowing that she would be disabled.

    wasabi - yes you are entitled to your opinion, but I do have to say that it I find it offensive to tell others that they "are selfish" because it isn't what you would do. I didn't read in this thread ANYONE saying that it was universally wrong for people to terminate, or that women did not have the right to make that choice for themselves.

    I did mention Hitler in the context that the extreme of your viewpoint leads to the opinion that certain members of society are not valuable and should be eliminated from the population. I mentioned that reproductive technology such as this was called "the new Eugenics" but I was not the one who gave it that name.

    Wasabi - do you have, or have you ever had anything to do with anyone who was disabled in any way? I would love to see how or if your opinions changed having had that experience... (not saying that they WOULD change, but just would be interested to know if they did...)

    (disclaimer - as this topic is very personal to me, I know I do take things very personally, even if they were not intended that way. I may be overreacting, however I am trying NOT to and to present my opinions logically rather than merely emotionally...)

  5. #45
    wasabibunny's Avatar
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    It depends on what you call disabled. I have family members that have mental illnesses and immediate family that are mobility impaired. They do cause a strain on those around them. Does that count as personal experience with the disabled? I also have experience with adoption and such. I am not telling anyone they should make the same choices I would. From my experiences I would not want to choose to do it, that is all. It seems to me that it is a burden. And from what I know about how difficult it can be to help those that need it the most, I would not bring that into the world knowingly given a choice. I have seen first hand the anguish it can cause the inidividuals because they cannot function properly in society and also the burden they post on their families. It does not discount the love, support and the extremes I have seen the parents of these children go to to make life easier for their children. But I don't think anyone I know would have chosen this path, had they been given a choice. But they did not have a choice.

    As for globalizing my position, I was just exercising free speech. I didn't realise coming into contact with someone of a differing opinion would cause so much duress. I certainly interact with people of differeing opinions all the time. And tt certainly was not an attach on you, nicolejoy. It is obvious that you give it a lot of thought before making your choice and your child is lucky to have such a parent. But i don't think it is lucky that anyone is born with a diability.
    Last edited by wasabibunny; 11-11-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  6. #46
    Obiwan is offline Registered User
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    With all due respect, perhaps you came across a little colder and harsher than needed, hence the response from members of the forum.

    As all have said, it is a personal choice, a very difficult one, and respect should be given to those who choose to keep the baby, and those who think termination is a kinder option.

    It is unfair to say either is selfish, as you can understand it yourself, caring for any disability is challenging physically and mentally, surely that must be a selfless act on its own.

    And choosing not to go ahead with the pregnancy if the kid is disabled is not the same as opting to adopt a disabled kid right off the bat. I will imagine many mothers will want to have our own children, no one will wish to have a disabled child, but faced with the situation one needs to make a difficult decision. And that decision is independent from whether one adopts a disabled child or a hungry one.
    Last edited by Obiwan; 11-11-2011 at 05:03 PM.
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  7. #47
    thanka2 is offline Registered User
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    Agreed. It was never an argument against social justice. I believe we should always make the best of life. And it is more beneficial to be inclusive of everyone. However, equality in any form (and not just for disabilities -- gender, sexual orientation, etc.) for the human race is a pipe dream. We are not all equal. But should we be entitled to social justice? Yes. Equality and fairness are not the same. And you are certainly extrapolating my views on social justice without any basis.
    I am curious to know what you think social justice is. How would you define it?

    Actually, from my study I never read anything about "equality"--no such thing exists in the world. I did read quite a bit about inclusion though and celebration of differences and the inherent value of every person despite his or her differences and "disabilities."

    I would like to add that we are not all “entitled” to our opinions. Some opinions are not correct. I didn’t say my opinion is absolutely right. In fact, more people should consider that their opinions can be wrong and that being intelligent creatures we should try to understand and back up our opinions with facts and reason. Why did I state my opinion? Of course I wanted to be challenges and hear other’s opinion. Maybe there are points of views I never considered before. My opinion is not a judgment. It is a conclusion I have come to with my understanding and experience. Will it change and grow? Most hopefully.
    But, we are truly all allowed to have opinions in a society like the one we live in that allows for freedom of speech.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"-Evelyn Beatrice Hall

    The thing about opinions is that they are all opinions. As carang pointed out--opinions differ from facts. Opinions are subjective. Sometimes opinions are backed up by facts and sometimes they aren't. I wager to say that the topic at hand is what many would call a "grey area." But, there are a lot of facts that can enlighten in this area nonetheless. Like the concept/principle that all children can learn. One hundred years ago or so it was thought that most of the population were dunces and that the expense of education was a waste. That is why we have IQ tests--they were designed to "weed out the unfit." I'm thinking that because of my difficulties with reading when I was younger (dyslexic) I probably would have fit in that category and society wouldn't have "wasted" precious time and money on me. I might be illiterate and working a menial job that was "suited to my abilities." See, times and perceptions change and thankfully for me they have! And it is certainly heartening to know that you believe that your own opinion can grow.

    There is actually a lot of research into the intelligence and ability of disabled people and what they can and do contribute to society. Not everything in this world can be measured in monetary or physical terms, I think. If it could, how would we measure abstract concepts like love, hope, compassion etc.?
    “Many women have described their experiences of childbirth as being associated with a
    spiritual uplifting, the power of which they have never previously been aware …
    To such a woman childbirth is a monument of joy within her memory.
    She turns to it in thought to seek again an ecstasy which passed too soon.”

    ~ Grantly Dick-Read (Childbirth Without Fear)

    Mother of Two
    JMW, boy, born November 29, 2007, 9:43 pm, USA
    MJW, girl, born March 17, 2011, 4:14 pm, HK

  8. #48
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    nicolejoy is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasabibunny View Post
    As for globalizing my position, I was just exercising free speech. I didn't realise coming into contact with someone of a differing opinion would cause so much duress. I certainly interact with people of differeing opinions all the time. And tt certainly was not an attach on you, nicolejoy. It is obvious that you give it a lot of thought before making your choice and your child is lucky to have such a parent. But i don't think it is lucky that anyone is born with a diability.
    Yes you were, but if you had read anything after the first post in this topic, you would know that you were speaking to someone who chose to give birth to a child with a disability - and by saying that such a decision is selfish DOES come across a bit harsh, in my opinion. I would have thought that you would have at least used a softer tone, knowing that - or said something like "I feel like for me it would be a selfish choice" if you meant it personally, rather than putting that on other people who make that decision.

    You say that those who don't like abortions are "anti-choice" but in all honesty, out of all the replies in this thread, yours comes across as the most "anti-choice" to me.

    I also don't think that a disability is "lucky" and if my daughter could have been born without a disability, of course I would have chosen that. However, her disability is a part of who she is - and to change that would be to change her, her whole genetic make up. So I accept it and know that such things which seem bad can often bring about good things in an indirect way. I will raise her with hope and faith and know that she CAN contribute to society just as much as anyone else - and perhaps in some ways, her disabilities give her advantages that we wouldn't even think about...
    thanka2, jvn, miran and 1 others like this.

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