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  1. #49
    carang's Avatar
    carang is offline Registered User
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    nowhere did i EVER say, or even insinuate that this " to force every woman to labor and give birth in a set model of fear and dread" is ok!

    please everyone... this is an issue for which many of you are passionate. but taking what i wrote and turning into that... that in no way represents what i said at all.....

    as a matter of fact, i am in complete agreement with the swimming analogy.... i thought i had made that clear??? :/

  2. #50
    thanka2 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by carang View Post
    nowhere did i EVER say, or even insinuate that this " to force every woman to labor and give birth in a set model of fear and dread" is ok!

    please everyone... this is an issue for which many of you are passionate. but taking what i wrote and turning into that... that in no way represents what i said at all.....

    as a matter of fact, i am in complete agreement with the swimming analogy.... i thought i had made that clear??? :/
    Cara, sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate this. Deepest apologies.

    I'm just talking about the medicalized model of birth which does set women up with a sense of dread and fear. Also, when we turn on the TV we see all these shows about medicalized hospital birth with all this trauma and stress going on.

    You had mentioned something about how in the past it was so dangerous to give birth and is still dangerous? That's why I was saying it's not an excuse just because something, in the right circumstances (which I elaborated on) can be dangerous to turn it into an exercise in fear-mongering as the medicalized birth system tends to do.

    Especially here in HK--where the moment you walk into many OBGYN's office for your first appointment they start telling you all the tests you need to get done because this or that could be wrong with your child. My experience in the States was the same with the OBGYN (although, thankfully, I had a midwife attend my birth and he was kept away from me by her except for his little speech in which he tried to persuade me to use pitocin by comparing my long labor--at that point about 30 hours--to a woman laboring in the desert in sub-Saharan Africa and then dying in childbirth--I think I've told this story too many times on here).

    So, I didn't mean to make it seem that you were saying that you would "force every woman to labor and give birth in a set model of fear and dread" but because you mentioned the "childbirth is so dangerous" card, I wanted to point out that this is exactly the card that many medicalized birth doctors use to pressure women into caving to what they want but what may not necessarily be best or what the woman wants. It's a system that overtly and covertly sends women the message of "Look out, something horrible is about to happen" instead of "Birth is a natural process and you are going to do excellent at it." (How many docs do you know who have ever encouraged a woman like that? Probably not many. My midwife did, though. Even when I e mailed her before my second child was born and discussed what the chances of hemorrhage were in my case she was absolutely positive--instead of saying "Well, you bled too much the first time, so you'd better watch out, it could happen again!!!!")

    So, again, let me apologize and clarify what I was talking about. I think we have to be careful when we throw around "birth was/is so dangerous" or even "birth can be dangerous" because that already starts developing a mindset and attitude that leads to nowhere good.
    “Many women have described their experiences of childbirth as being associated with a
    spiritual uplifting, the power of which they have never previously been aware …
    To such a woman childbirth is a monument of joy within her memory.
    She turns to it in thought to seek again an ecstasy which passed too soon.”

    ~ Grantly Dick-Read (Childbirth Without Fear)

    Mother of Two
    JMW, boy, born November 29, 2007, 9:43 pm, USA
    MJW, girl, born March 17, 2011, 4:14 pm, HK

  3. #51
    Kinoize is offline Registered User
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    Thank you ladies for bringing on this topic ! I love it !

    As a doula, this is my everyday fight...make sure woman are informed and educated to help them make informed choices (whatever their choice is, I totally respect them and I will always support a woman in her decision - it is so important to be supported, to feel confident and empowered).
    Even if it can be difficult in HK to have a "normal birth", it is possible, but you need to fight for your cause and make sure the right persons support you, including: your obgyn, your doula if you hire one and your partner ! Communication is one of the key, if hospital staff understand and clearly see you know what you want and you know what you are talking about, then they would generally follow your wishes. Stay polite and give them a smile...it helps a lot :)

    Hiring a doula is a good way to help answer lots of your questions, help you find the information you need to be informed, and help you list your options and alternatives (especially for 1st time mothers). When Dr do not have the time to guide you, your doula can ! In HK, doula are getting more and more popular (even thought we are not a lot). Dr and hospital staff (in private hospitals) do allow doulas to be with you during labour and birth without a problem...

    Keep debating again and again ladies, whatever is your position on the subject, it is very interesting. There is a lot to say, and a lot to think about...
    Lali07 likes this.

  4. #52
    Lali07 is offline Registered User
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    I believe in natural birth, but I also believe in other things (including nursing) which will likely have a greater long term effect on the health of a child. It seems hypocritical to have such trust in one natural process and not another.

  5. #53
    thanka2 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinoize View Post
    Even if it can be difficult in HK to have a "normal birth", it is possible, but you need to fight for your cause and make sure the right persons support you, including: your obgyn, your doula if you hire one and your partner ! Communication is one of the key, if hospital staff understand and clearly see you know what you want and you know what you are talking about, then they would generally follow your wishes. Stay polite and give them a smile...it helps a lot :)
    I didn't find this to be the case at all. The staff at the hospital I gave birth at in HK had their idea of what they wanted me to do--they wanted me to sit down in a wheelchair even though it was terribly painful for me and I was perfectly fine walking. They wanted me to lay down on a bed with a fetal monitor strapped to me even though the pain from that was excruciating. They wanted me to breathe quietly and not make any sound in labor. They wanted me to wear a labor gown that was suffocating hot and nearly gave me a panic attack while wearing. They wanted to be the ones to coach me in labor even though they were cold and uncaring.

    And they didn't get the point until we very strongly (without a smile) advised them of what our wishes were (again and again) and that they were non-negotiable because there was no need to negotiate. It's a pity they didn't get it and that we had to go through the stress of standing up for ourselves but honestly, if you don't you will get walked on--they have their protocols and what they want but it's not necessarily A) what you want or B) what's best for you during labor.

    At the time of labor, I think the best thing you can have on your side is a strong advocate and in HK that means your husband/partner because they don't allow doulas into the public hospitals. It's great to have one at home to help you get through early labor and stay calm before you go to the hospital and they are great as educational resources but when it comes down to it you really do need to 1) know what you're talking about--not only that--be prepared for what you're going through--just knowing in your mind isn't practical enough when it comes to labor--it takes practice, practice, practice and know-how and preparation and that's also where a doula can help--preparation for birth should take around 6 months prior 2) communicate it in whatever way will make sense to the staff--have a clear birth plan but sometimes some staff do not get the "smile politely" thing--they really do need to be told to stop and desist whatever they're doing if it's not in line with your wishes and 3) have a strong, educated advocate who is on board with what you're doing. It's great to have the husband/partner there anyway but it's necessary to have them as educated and prepared as they can possibly be to support you. It's really not for men who are faint of heart, though so it takes a lot of courage and commitment, I think.

    I hope that one day doulas and midwives will be welcomed with open arms as amazing resources within the birthing system in HK but until that day comes...and even when it's here, I say stand up for yourself in whatever way works.

    Oh, and Kinoize, thanks for your comment and great work as a doula--the world and HK need more of people like you. :)
    “Many women have described their experiences of childbirth as being associated with a
    spiritual uplifting, the power of which they have never previously been aware …
    To such a woman childbirth is a monument of joy within her memory.
    She turns to it in thought to seek again an ecstasy which passed too soon.”

    ~ Grantly Dick-Read (Childbirth Without Fear)

    Mother of Two
    JMW, boy, born November 29, 2007, 9:43 pm, USA
    MJW, girl, born March 17, 2011, 4:14 pm, HK

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