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  1. #1
    thanka2 is offline Registered User
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    Support Normal Birth

    MommieMid likes this.
    “Many women have described their experiences of childbirth as being associated with a
    spiritual uplifting, the power of which they have never previously been aware …
    To such a woman childbirth is a monument of joy within her memory.
    She turns to it in thought to seek again an ecstasy which passed too soon.”

    ~ Grantly Dick-Read (Childbirth Without Fear)

    Mother of Two
    JMW, boy, born November 29, 2007, 9:43 pm, USA
    MJW, girl, born March 17, 2011, 4:14 pm, HK

  2. #2
    miran is offline Registered User
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    just one of the many counter articles out there:
    http://homebirthdebate.blogspot.com/...inal-rule.html

  3. #3
    erina320's Avatar
    erina320 is offline Registered User
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    I am all for a natural birth.

    That being said, in my case had I not been in the hospital for my first daughters birth they would not have discovered through blood tests that I had developed a life threatening condition that was otherwise asymptomatic and had I opted for a home delivery I would've died without post delivery treatment.

    Let's not forget that child birth was the leading cause of death for woman in the days of yore...

  4. #4
    thanka2 is offline Registered User
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    I think that if you read the above statements clearly there is nothing said about home birth whatsoever. I've given birth twice--both in a hospital. In my case, I am glad I was in a hospital as I hemorrhaged so much the first time that I passed out form blood loss and the second time to prevent that, after I had given birth to my child, I was given synthetic oxytocin (in a continuous intravenous drip for several hours) to force my uterus to contract--I still had an unusually large amount of bleeding but it wasn't as dangerous.

    I think there is a misconception that the above elements of normal labor must take place in a person's home. Totally not true.

    So, for miran and erina320, I just want to point out that the above poster never once mentions home birth. I think the choice to give birth at home in HK is long overdue but given the choice, considering my own medical history, I would still choose to give birth in a hospital. Of course home birth is and always will be controversial--as are many other things.

    Also, the above elements on the poster are generally healthier for mother and baby in the long-run. To attribute the sole reason why women would die in childbirth to having homebirths is a bit of a stretch. You have to also take into account things like nutrition, sanitation and general medical knowledge. The maternal death rate in countries like the US has gone up significantly as c-sections became more common place starting in the early to mid-1990s. Anyway, the poster above isn't about home birth at all so...

    In order to facilitate a normal birth in whatever setting (hospital, birthing center, home) the following can help (verbatim from above):

    -hiring a doula (Allowed to hire a doula in HK but not allowed inside of the labor rooms in the hospitals here--but most hospitals elsewhere in the world allow this. I did not have a doula at either of my births but my mother and husband
    served in this capacity. They both took classes and we prepared extensively and especially for this role.)
    -vocalizing in labor (Being allowed to cry out, speak, moan or otherwise use your vocals to get through labor--I was reprimanded for this in the labor room and heard others being reprimanded for it as well in HK--it's a basic right to speak or cry in labor and no woman should be chastised for it--it is part of the process and a useful tool. Thankfully, I just told them to leave me alone and they did.)
    -no routine episiotomy (I refused an episiotomy during both births because I would rather tear if I'm going to tear than have a clean cut start the process and tear even longer and deeper).
    -mother-led pushing (In the hospital here in HK the staff tried to get in there and "coach" and tell me when and how to push but it was a pretty pointless exercise for them--I didn't need their help--my body and mind are quite capable on their own. Eventually they figured it out and left me alone.)
    -breech vaginal birth (With the right relaxation and support this is possible--I've seen videos of women giving birth breech in hospital settings using waterbirth. Thankfully I didn't encounter this situation with my own births.)
    -unrestricted movement (Not being told to lie flat on your back in a bed--or any other position-- and go through contractions that way. I found that walking and standing during contractions lessened my own pain by half. Also a basic right to not be restricted in labor. I had to buck the system and refuse to be continual fetal monitoring and thus being tethered to the bed)
    -listening to mom's instincts (They've served me well.)
    -pitocin only as a last resort (Usually it's the first resort here and that messes up labor from the start--makes contracts more painful and harsh which puts the baby's health at risk and easily escalates leading to the need for a c-section to rescue the baby. In my case, pitocin--or its equivalent--was administered after the baby came out for my own safety.)
    -eating and drinking in labor (With my most recent birth I took a lesson from my first birth and as soon as I knew I was in labor, I had a hearty bowl of soup--it was still early enough in labor that I felt comfortable eating but I knew that I would need the energy that food would provide later on. I stayed at home for 8 of my 12 hours of labor this last time so I made use of that time to stock up on food--it made a world of difference in the ability of my body to perform in labor).
    -natural methods for pain relief (There are a lot of them. For me, personally, walking, rotating my hips, counter pressure applied to my hips and lower back, warm water, vocalizing, breathing and some herbal pain relief got me through.)
    -no unnecessary vaginal exams (The reason for this is simple. Vaginal exams during labor don't tell much because a woman can be dilated and then "close up" after a vaginal exam--the cervix is like a sphincter muscle that closes due to tension--vaginal exams can give unnecessary tension to the area. On top of that, they can introduce bacteria to the area and can cause the membranes to rupture. As soon as the membranes rupture then labor becomes a race against the clock as the baby needs to come out sooner to prevent infection. During my first labor I had one vaginal exam and during my second one as well--upon admittance to the ward.)
    -perineal massage and support (This is the one step I really didn't get around to during labor although I used it to prepare for labor--maybe I wouldn't have torn either time if I had.)
    -no separation of mother and baby (Common sense--for bonding, breastfeeding, comfort, safety etc.)
    -spontaneous rupture of membranes (see above concerning vaginal exams)
    -allowing labor to start on its own (see above pitocin use)
    -pushing in whatever position feels best (see above freedom to move in labor and pain relief)
    -intermittent monitoring or none at all (see above regarding freedom to move in labor. My OBGYN told me at one of my checkups this past pregnancy that fetal heart monitoring is wrong 50% of the time. Those are pretty bad odds. Anyway, I refused to be strapped to a bed in both of my labors. In my first the hospital policy was 15 minutes of fetal heart monitoring every 45 minutes. In HK they carry a portable wand and do intermittent monitoring with that. However, they never really got around to doing it with me because it was too inconvenient for them to wait for me to go through a contraction before shoving the sharp thing against my belly.)
    -informed consent and informed refusal without persecution (I think it will be a great day when women are not persecuted for their choices in the labor room and when they really are given a chance to give informed consent/refusal. I consented to some things and refused others while I was in labor in HK and got to listen to the staff bad-mouth me for the rest of my labor. Good thing that it didn't matter much to me. Yes, the hospitals here definitely like the compliant and quiet types.)
    Last edited by thanka2; 12-31-2011 at 12:02 AM.
    “Many women have described their experiences of childbirth as being associated with a
    spiritual uplifting, the power of which they have never previously been aware …
    To such a woman childbirth is a monument of joy within her memory.
    She turns to it in thought to seek again an ecstasy which passed too soon.”

    ~ Grantly Dick-Read (Childbirth Without Fear)

    Mother of Two
    JMW, boy, born November 29, 2007, 9:43 pm, USA
    MJW, girl, born March 17, 2011, 4:14 pm, HK

  5. #5
    erina320's Avatar
    erina320 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanka2 View Post
    ... and baby in the long-run. To attribute the sole reason why women would die in childbirth to having homebirths is a bit of a stretch. You have to also take into account things like nutrition, sanitation and general medical knowledge. The maternal death rate in countries like the US has gone up significantly as c-sections became more common place starting in the early to mid-1990s. Anyway, the poster above isn't about home birth at all so...
    I never attributed death solely to homebirth. I simply stated that preganacy and labor were a leading cause of death before current medical practices and methods.

    Similarly, It is a stretch to attribute the higher death rate in America solely to an increase in c-sections, while the average age and weight of Mothers in America have also increased, both of which increase the chance for complications/death.
    miran likes this.

  6. #6
    miran is offline Registered User
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    thanka2: have you read the article i posited ? am pro-normal labour. i am pro-choice. i am pro - consent. i am anti - the assumption that women are being foced into c-secs. and baffled by the idea that every woman who has information, education and good sense would somehow choose a natural delivery.

  7. #7
    thanka2 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by miran View Post
    thanka2: have you read the article i posited ? am pro-normal labour. i am pro-choice. i am pro - consent. i am anti - the assumption that women are being foced into c-secs. and baffled by the idea that every woman who has information, education and good sense would somehow choose a natural delivery.
    Yes, I did read the article. Still, I don't understand why an article which is talking about what statistics are reliable for reporting of infant deaths/miscarriages worldwide and which statistic is used for gauging the safety of maternal health worldwide and how these numbers relate to home births really relates at all to a set of guidelines that promote natural birth. Especially as home birth is not mentioned at all the those set of guidelines. I guess it could be argued that all home births more or less rely on these guidelines but not all births that rely on these guidelines are or must be home births. Just good guidelines for birth in general.

    I want to point out that, at least on my part, there is no assumption that "women are being forced into c-secs." But, there exists in hospitals a standard procedure which many times involves the use of induction as a routine procedure in labor--whether it is medically indicated or not. Induction often times leads down paths that do lead to c-sections and once you're that far there's no turning back. And at the same time, by not offering women just as many, varied and reliable options in labor medical care providers are doing women a disservice--by literally only presenting one way of doing things as their standard practice. Therefore, often times women do have to go through the stress and pressure of "bucking the system" in order to have a birth that physiologically is the most natural.

    Again, I want to state that I really don't think that "every woman who has information, education and good sense [will] somehow choose a [intervention-free, med-free labor]." I am saying that for women like me who did choose that route there weren't many options available to me and I did have to "buck the system" to lobby for my right to not be strapped to a bed, pumped full of drugs, tampered with, cut and injected just because having a baby the way that the poster above advocates is not part of how things are routinely done. It's more routine to have a medicalized labor even when it's not medically indicated. So, for those who are truly "pro-choice" in this area, I think there would be a stronger lobby coming from them for more true "choices" in labor. If you want an intervention-filled, med-filled labor you certainly can get that anywhere with a smile both here and in the States. If you want something different you are considered abnormal and are not catered for in the hospital or if you are it's only with harassment. That's my experience.
    “Many women have described their experiences of childbirth as being associated with a
    spiritual uplifting, the power of which they have never previously been aware …
    To such a woman childbirth is a monument of joy within her memory.
    She turns to it in thought to seek again an ecstasy which passed too soon.”

    ~ Grantly Dick-Read (Childbirth Without Fear)

    Mother of Two
    JMW, boy, born November 29, 2007, 9:43 pm, USA
    MJW, girl, born March 17, 2011, 4:14 pm, HK

  8. #8
    thanka2 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by erina320 View Post
    I never attributed death solely to homebirth. I simply stated that preganacy and labor were a leading cause of death before current medical practices and methods.

    Similarly, It is a stretch to attribute the higher death rate in America solely to an increase in c-sections, while the average age and weight of Mothers in America have also increased, both of which increase the chance for complications/death.

    Again, why are we talking about home birth here? Not really the subject at hand.

    Interventions and c-sections that are not medically indicated (aka done for convenience etc.) do have impacts on mother and child--including slower reflexes in infants up to three months after birth (when they just stopped studying it) which also leads to more difficulties with breastfeeding which then leads to more formula use which can in turn affect obesity rates in children....that's just one path that is affected.

    So, interventions can and do have a negative impact on our health. But, to only point out that "well, women were dying in childbirth all the time back when..." and not to also point out that "but that could have been also due to the fact that they were malnourished, unsanitary and didn't have access to modern medicine and devices" shows just as much hyperbole as to say, "Interventions and c-sections have led to more maternal deaths..." and "also obesity and women having babies at older ages has contributed." So, let's just be fair and look at both sides.

    I get really tired of the sensationalism (i.e. "remember when our great grandmothers were all dying in childbirth...thank God we have all these wonderful interventions to save us from that!") that comes mostly through media that portrays birth as this wretched, awful, catastrophic event that women are in no way capable of handling save for the fact that there are teams of "professionals" there to get them through it. No doubt that many women believe this about childbirth from before they're even pregnant--so with a belief system like one's chances of a natural labor (if they would be "crazy enough" to even wish for one) are pretty slim.

    I'd like birth presented as what it is--a natural thing that the body is naturally designed to do and with a little belief in yourself and a little preparation and knowledge and a little support from professionals who also treat birth like what it is--you can go through it with little or no intervention--if you want to.

    Anyway, if you've experienced it, you may understand. All I came here to do was to share something that I really believe in because I've experienced it. If it helps you or helps any other mother to have a little bit of belief or just maybe to see things differently or consider other options, then that's great. I know what I will choose and why I will choose it and the health of my children and myself is enough evidence for me--not to mention the deep, touching, spiritual experience birth was for me--that I was 100% lucid in order to experience--one of the hardest-worked-for and most valuable gifts I ever gave myself was a natural birth.
    “Many women have described their experiences of childbirth as being associated with a
    spiritual uplifting, the power of which they have never previously been aware …
    To such a woman childbirth is a monument of joy within her memory.
    She turns to it in thought to seek again an ecstasy which passed too soon.”

    ~ Grantly Dick-Read (Childbirth Without Fear)

    Mother of Two
    JMW, boy, born November 29, 2007, 9:43 pm, USA
    MJW, girl, born March 17, 2011, 4:14 pm, HK

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